[Individual-members-EL] FW: EL Indivual Members
Stephen Spence
stephen_spence at btinternet.com
Tue Jul 24 23:11:26 CEST 2012
_____
From: Stephen Spence [mailto:stephen_spence at btinternet.com]
Sent: 24 July 2012 22:01
To: 'Indiv. Members EL'
Subject: RE: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Dear Nobert,
That’s great you had the conversation with Waltraud and Maite.
I have given Waltraud some dates in September when I am in Brussels. She
said she would get back to me about possibility of a conversation with her
and Jiri.
So far she has not. I am about to go to Australia until the end of August.
When I come back I will see if anything has happened.
I have had some discussions on this forum in relation to the possibility of
a UK specific resolution. I have concluded that without an EL structure in
place which UK individual members can link into there is no consensus on a
UK specific way forward. There needs to be a Europe wide structure for
individual members.
So I will wait to see how these talks progress.
Best
Stephen
_____
From: individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de
[mailto:individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de] On Behalf Of
Norbert Hagemann
Sent: 20 July 2012 08:16
To: Indiv. Members EL
Subject: Re: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Dear Stephen,
last days I had the possibility to attend a transfrom workshop on the left
and the crisis in Europe which took place in Greece. The days before there
was an ExBoard meeting of the EL in Athens and so I had the possibility to
talk about the issue of the individual membership together with Waltraud and
Maite. It was a conversation within a real open athmosphere and we used the
possibility to listen to each other. I explained the situation based on my
own experience and summerized what the massage of our mail / letter and the
following mail-"debate" is. Doing this I focused on the following points.
* The situation, that individual members of the EL do not have any
rights right now should be solved
* We are of the view that our letter is representative as fare as we
are living within the different circumsstances "forseen" in the statut and
coming all to the same conclusion
* We are asking for a solution which should be defined commonly, means
together with us as members and not for an solution on us
* We are aware that the our request is percepted within the member
parties in a different way and that even the represantatives parties which
pushed in the past the individual membership are at the moment against that
* We are interested to work on an long lasting, sustainable solution
which could be reached via different steps if needed
* The Italian model is not a soultion for us as members should not ask
for an observer status
* We are still waiting for an answer in which way the positiv answer
we got from Waltraud and Jiri will be realized
We exchanged our informations on the upcomming EU regulations on the
European Political Parties and the rules of financement of this parties.
Maite and Waltraud promised that they will inform the secretariat about the
discussion and will start non later than September to work on a solution
(with us). I promised to inform the Individual members about this debate so
that everyone beeing listed here can reflect and work on concret
suggestions.
Kind regards
Norbert
Gesendet: Samstag, 30. Juni 2012 um 14:08 Uhr
Von: "Stephen Spence" <stephen_spence at btinternet.com>
An: "'Indiv. Members EL'" <individual-members-el at listi.jpberlin.de>
Betreff: Re: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Richard,
Thanks for those answers, very helpful. I was exploring in my head whether
there was a DLS angle to this registration business but your answers say no.
The point you make about the name ‘Democratic Left’ has been made by others.
I was in Australia when all that history happened and went through the story
there which was CPA becoming the SEARCH Foundation but spawning the New Left
Party which became Left Network and then went extinct. SEARCH Foundation is
still going, still gazing at its own navel.
The ‘right euro-communists in the UK did seem to become ‘New Labour’ with
the ‘left euro-communists’ left outside anything.
It’s a pity about ‘Democratic Left’ because it is such a good name.
Registering ‘European Left Party’ could be done but it’s a double edged
sword. The word ‘European’ does not play well here. You’d just about get
away with it for European elections, but Westminster and Local would be
problematic and you might as well do one for all. Also the truth is EL is
really a banner for national or regional based left parties. Making that
banner effectively a party through registration here is a new step unless
you did something like European Left GB or European Left England or European
Left Scotland, which could be done.
You register for Great Britain. You can then nominate individual countries
you will stand in if you want i.e. England, Scotland, Wales or you can leave
it GB and run anywhere.
Because we only have individual members and only Brussels knows who they are
and hasn’t so far shared the detail one of the difficulties is any of us
with an interest are effectively one man bands (and I mean man. I have yet
to hear of a woman individual member in UK) which is why the ‘Left
Independent’ idea came up. You could actually seek to register that as a
title and the one of the three people who you register as the ‘Nominating
Officer’ can then allow the name to be used. That’s what TUSC do for
example.
The alternative is to do nothing collectively and as a left individual
support TUSC/Respect/Greens/Labour/SNP as an electoral option rather than
try and do something else, but I’m interested that with DLS as a network
leaving you free to support someone else electorally, you’re still
interested in a left option. That’s my instinct too but it’s hard.
Best
Stephen
_____
From: individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de
[mailto:individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de] On Behalf Of
Richard Dunphy
Sent: 29 June 2012 12:38
To: Indiv. Members EL
Subject: Re: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Dear Stephen,
Democratic Left Scotland has consciously and deliberately chosen NOT to
register as a political party, but to function as a network. This does mean
that some members of the Greens and even the Labour Left are also members of
DLS. It explains why it has gone for observer membership of the EL, as full
membership would cause problems for these comrades. It also means that DLS -
per DLS - could not run, or support, a candidate in Scotland as some of our
members would be campaigning for Green or Labour candidates. (I had
forgotten that point in our previous correspondence; as so often, political
realities north and south of the border are slightly different).
DLS only accepts members from Scotland. There was, of course, a DL in
England and Wales (after the CPBG voted to rename itself as the Democratic
Left) which was our sister organisation, but it dissolved itself into the
New Times Network, which then dissolved itself into ... nothing? New Labour?
I am unclear as to where those comrades ended up. I guess it would be for
comrades in England and Wales to consider reestablishing DL down there, not
really for us to comment. But for your purposes it might be better to go for
a new name, rather than sound like a re-run of the sad and sorry days of the
end of the CPGB/DL in England! I wasn't involved directly, but I think those
were quite acrimonious times, perhaps best not recalled.
IF Brussels would give the green light, it would be good to see EL
registered with the electoral commission down south. Does there have to be
separate registrations north and south of the England/Scotland border? It
would be interesting to know the implications of that.
Best,
Richard.
_____
From: individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de
[individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de] on behalf of Stephen
Spence [stephen_spence at btinternet.com]
Sent: 28 June 2012 21:10
To: 'Indiv. Members EL'
Subject: Re: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Richard,
Has Democratic Left Scotland ever considered registering as a political
party with the Electoral Commission and does it accept members from the rest
of GB or just Scotland?
Also if it doesn’t accept members from outside Scotland has it ever taken a
position on whether the Democratic Left could be re-established in the rest
of GB?
I’m sorry to bombard you with questions but I also would be interested in
what you think about attempting to register the name ‘European Left’ or
‘Democratic Left’ with the Electoral Commission as an alternative to a ‘Left
Independent’ strategy for 2014.
Best
Stephen
ps I know this is the kind of comment that gets me in trouble with the EL
powers that be, but I know there has been and likely still is contact
between Die Linke and other EL national parties with the Labour
Representation Committee inside the Labour Party. I have always wondered
whether part of the problem in getting assistance with affiliating a GB
individual members body has included the national parties being reluctant to
‘rock the boat’ with LRC because they get something out of that connection
that they are reluctant to compromise or perhaps more innocently that LRC
has run the ‘nothing outside Labour in GB will work because of the electoral
system’ line and they listen to that more than those of us who would like
some help in establishing an alternative to working in Labour.
_____
From: individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de
[mailto:individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de] On Behalf Of
Richard Dunphy
Sent: 28 June 2012 01:58
To: Indiv. Members EL
Subject: Re: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Dear Norbert,
Lovely to hear from you, and thanks for this advice. It's not in my power to
send the application again, but I have forwarded your message to Stuart
Fairweather (s.fairweather703 at btinternet.com), who is the national convenor
of Democratic Left Scotland, with a recommendation that he do as you
suggest.
best wishes,
Richard.
_____
From: individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de
[individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de] on behalf of Norbert
Hagemann [norberthagemann at web.de]
Sent: 27 June 2012 19:02
To: Indiv. Members EL
Subject: Re: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Hi Richard,
I was not able to enter the debate between you and Stephen but I will do so
a little bit later, sorry to much to do right now. Regarding the DLC I would
like to ask you to "resend" this request please to Helmut Scholz. You can
reach him under the following mail address: helmut.scholz at europarl.europa.eu
I talked to him right now. He will table it at the EL ExBoard meeting next
month in Athens.
Kind regards
Norbert
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juni 2012 um 16:03 Uhr
Von: "Richard Dunphy" <r.a.g.dunphy at dundee.ac.uk>
An: "Indiv. Members EL" <individual-members-el at listi.jpberlin.de>
Betreff: Re: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Dear Stephen,
Just by way of keeping you fully in the picture, so to speak, there is an
organisation here in Scotland called Democratic Left Scotland (which grew
out of the old CPGB, but is now a network rather than a party, with some
members from the Greens, etc.). I am in it, as are maybe half-a-dozen or so
other independent EL members in Scotland. DLS is small (about 100 members)
but good - it publishes an excellent quarterly journal called Perspectives
(www.democraticleftscotland.org.uk). The point is that DLS applied to become
an observer member of the EL last autumn. They still have not received any
reply from Brussels. It would seem that the chronic inefficiency at the top
doesn't just apply to the issue of individual membership!
Richard.
_____
From: individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de
[individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de] on behalf of Stephen
Spence [stephen_spence at btinternet.com]
Sent: 27 June 2012 13:22
To: 'Indiv. Members EL'
Subject: Re: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Dear Richard,
In my lunch break so relatively quickly.
You are of course correct, a European Left badge would be better. Currently
there isn’t one although with three people and £150 you can register a party
name with the electoral commission and run under it. As long as European
Left didn’t object although on what grounds they could do so anyway I’m not
sure. They have a EU registration but that doesn’t get you on the UK ballot
paper even in EU elections.
To this point in time other UK based people I’ve spoken to haven’t supported
doing that on the grounds that it would be a hollow organisation, and
therefore simply another non-resourced label rather than anything real. I’m
not sure I agree with that. I’ve always thought that one candidate with a
Party name is enough. But the point is I’ve never had two other people
prepared to do it and for registration you have to list three people in
total as officers of a named party.
That’s why I thought a ‘Left Independent’ openly advertising an affiliation
with the European Left might be a way to go. It still costs £5000 deposit,
the appointment of an agent, so two people per constituency minimum
required. In addition you would need finance for leaflets etc and yes it
would have to be the small number of UK people left as EL individual members
who would have to try to do that. So far I know of you and Luke and two
others who were involved before I’m still in contact with personally. In
addition I think I could draw in a dozen or so personal contacts who would
have an interest if something was happening but who have no interest if it
isn’t.
I often get advice to start locally but there are lots of little left groups
all round the country which haven’t moved much beyond the parish pump. I
think you’ve got to make a top end intervention to kick things off.
The Party of the European Left is to me a democratic left party, and to me
the democratic left is subtlety different from other socialist and communist
groups. To me it’s a form of left social democracy at heart that I agree
with.
It is of course possible with your £150 and three people (when three emerge
pointing in the same direction at once) to register a party name that is UK
specific, that could then seek to affiliate to EL. I’ve thought of lots of
them for example;
Democratic Left, Progressive Left, Radical Left, Radical Democrats, Left
Green Democrats
I assure you the list goes on.
So far any attempts to do this have floundered on different views to any
proposal which is why some of us concentrated on getting individual
membership of EL and then trying to get recognition for individual members.
Believe it or not since 2004 on two separate occasions we had a UK website
including an on-line blog, a post office box, and we’ve had people attending
Congress, Trade Union Network, summer Schools but the Party has always been
slow to help develop it further. Even now I’m waiting for George in
Brussels to provide me with a list of UK based individual members, following
a response from him criticising a statement from me that a lack of support
existed. No such list has ever been provided to me despite requests over
eight years. The EL want individual members but up until now they don’t
seem to want them organising but in the same breathe tell to organise
yourselves. They mean I think as a Party that can affiliate, individual
membership has always been a bit threatening to existing member parties,
even though we don’t have one in the UK.
However I now have this dialogue going with Waltraud and frankly I’m hoping
through that they pick up on efforts to consider candidates in the UK and
give some help, but I’m not holding my breathe.
So it does indeed come down to what we think we could do. I think there is
no point in being an EL individual member long term if the EL can’t
intervene in politics in the UK. It’s taken me eight years to get to that
point. Therefore in 2014 I want to do something one way or another as the
welfare state crashes and burns around us.
My ‘Left Independent‘ idea comes from an absence of any other bright ideas
right now. So far the two comrades who dropped out after previous efforts,
who I still write to off line, don’t think it is a good idea and you have
raised legitimate points. A comrade from Germany has said ‘good luck’ and
that so far is it.
My conclusion is after eight years of EL discussion in the UK someone needs
to say ‘I’m going to run in this constituency can I rely on your support’.
In order to get someone to take that step I’m seeing if there is a way of
doing it that has some degree of support.
If not it might be better for EL individual members in the UK, such as we
are, to simply decide to support to Respect, TUSC or the Greens in 2014 or
all of the above, and with EL concentrate on getting some form of Individual
Members Branch in the discussions with Waltraud.
Happy to hear all additional thoughts.
Best
Stephen
_____
From: individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de
[mailto:individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de] On Behalf Of
Richard Dunphy
Sent: 26 June 2012 13:04
To: Indiv. Members EL
Subject: Re: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Dear Stephen,
Many thanks for doing this work on behalf of us all.
As regards your proposal for running candidates in the UK in the 2014 EP
elections, I would love to have the option of voting for, and campaigning
for, an EL party candidate, but I am not sure about the wisdom of running
(an) independent candidate(s). If it is not possible to draw attention to
the existence of EL as a party, and run on the basis of an EL Manifesto,
what would be achieved by running as independents? Speaking personally, I
must admit that I usually don't take independent candidates seriously
(except, perhaps, at local council level) and tend to vote for a party, not
an individual.
Also, would an EP campaign have to be financed entirely within the UK by a
small group of supporters? Presuming so, again I wonder how feasible it
would be - and all, more than likely, for a couple of hundred votes. OK, it
might be argued that even a candidate running on an EL party platform might
not poll more than a tiny vote, but at least in this case it would put the
party on the map, so to speak, and remind many disenfranchised left-wingers
in this country that there is a party alternative to Labour - at the
European level at any rate. Would an independent candidature achieve this?
Sorry if this sounds negative. I'm not entirely close-minded, just exploring
my initial reactions!
best wishes,
Richard.
_____
From: individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de
[individual-members-el-bounces at listi.jpberlin.de] on behalf of Stephen
Spence [stephen_spence at btinternet.com]
Sent: 24 June 2012 11:26
To: 'Indiv. Members EL'
Subject: [Individual-members-EL] EL Indivual Members
Dear All,
CONFIDENTIAL TO THIS LIST
I would like to advise you that I am in ongoing correspondence with Waltraud
of the EL Statutes Commission trying to get a trying to get a date to meet
in Brussels about individual members. I am proposing, following up Nobert’s
letter, a European wide individual members branch that can meet a couple of
times a year, with a Branch Executive, a seat on the Executive Board, the
Chair able to attend the Council of Chairpersons, and the Branch able to
send delegates to the EL Congress based on the number of members. In
essence I am suggesting an Individual Members Branch should be treated like
a Member Party. I will let you know how these discussions progress. I am
happy to do this work but if there ever becomes a need for something to be
said about it publicly I will need someone to do this, as I can only do this
in a private capacity, behind the scenes, due to my public trade union work.
For individual members in the UK I would like to know your opinion on an
additional matter. I am wondering whether it might be possible for
individual members of the EL to run as ‘Left Independent’ candidates
affiliated to EL in the 2014 European Parliament. Where there is no UK
registered political party running as an ‘independent’ is an alternative
option. I had thought as the ‘European Left’ is registered party at the
European level it might be possible to use that name but I can’t get any
clear advice on that, and I think there were have to be a UK registered
party to do it. So the ‘Left Independent’ idea came into my head. Does
anyone have a view?
Best
Stephen
The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish Charity, No: SC015096
The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish Charity, No: SC015096
The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish Charity, No: SC015096
The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish Charity, No: SC015096
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